Monday, October 26, 2009

Is TLC a Cult?

A commenter leaves a message:

Do you think TLC is a cult?

The question reminds me of a line from the movie The Survivors when Walter Matthau's character confronts Robin Williams' "Donald Quinelle" who's joined a cult of survivalists:

Sonny Paluso: You think Wes is God, don't you.
Donald Quinelle: No, not God, Just an ordinary man. Maybe a little ahead of his time, but just an ordinary man.
Sonny Paluso: Wes is an asshole.
Donald Quinelle: Blasphemy! Oh, you'll smoke a turd in hell for that!

In other words, Gerry isn't a God, he's just an ordinary man and anyone who says differently has blasphemed our Dear Leader and must be either reprogrammed or shunned! Boil up a batch of Kool Aid, somebody's starting to sober up!

Just kidding. My honest answer is that I don't think it is. But I fear it's becoming a cult of personality, more loyal to personalities in power than to the principles that made it such an amazing experience.

I'm on the F Warrior Board. One of our rules, newly created, is that we can't divulge internal discussions. I'm not saying I agree with it or not, but it's a rule, voted in, after a particularly heated argument.

I bring it up to demonstrate why I edited the email I sent to the rest of the FWB tonight. I didn't selectively edit for my own purposes, in other words, but to comply with the rules. What I said might answer the question:

I was looking forward to Dallas but responses like [X's] that accuse the questioner of being "distrustful" make me think our meeting, so helpful last year, will likely degenerate into personal attacks and tests of loyalty (which is defined as not asking any tough questions) rather than an honest dialogue about what's best for the alumni.

It's true that change is hard, but it's also true that what organizations need is a variety of viewpoints and people with a willingness to ask tough questions and debate honestly. It's also true that our mission is independent of the TLC Board and that our Board was designed to support the alumni rather than the TLC Board.

In fact, dig out your Spring '06 Warrior where [] describes the beginnings of the F Warrior Club as "from the moment of its inception, it was designed to be comprised of the Alumni, by the Alumni and for the Alumni.. While supportive of TLC the F Warrior Club was always meant to be autonomous, answering only to the needs of the Alumni."

He goes on to say that the FWB was then created and "was never meant to govern, but only to serve the interests of the club."

Are we living up to that foundation now, assisting the President as he drafts explanations of his decision to "reorganize" the board toward obsequiousness, accusing each other of being "distrustful" when someone respectfully asks questions or points out that what she saw at Grad II differs from the official company line, undoubtedly in the name of fulfilling her role representing her regions' alumni?

And rather than accusing people who ask questions like this of having [issues] or of [spreading innuendo] perhaps we should be asking ourselves what is the best way to carry out our mission statement, the best way to "answer only to the needs of the alumni" as [T] put it several years ago.

Our interpretations of how to serve the alumni will differ, which is why we're all necessary. My fear is that our meeting will quickly become part witchhunt (for whoever forwarded [Y]'s email to [Z]) and part loyalty test where anyone who asks tough questions won't have them answered but will instead be attacked personally, accused of being distrustful for daring to speak out. My other fear is that, much like the TLC Board, we will degenerate into sycophancy toward personalities rather than carrying out TLC principles.

Not exactly what the alumni need right now, at such a trying time, in my opinion. How about instead we strive for transparency to the alumni who may be, understandably, confused about what's going on inside TLC?

Why not encourage all of us to speak openly, without fear from personal attack, much like we're taught to honor the gifts jurors share with us in voir dire?

I'm glad you're optimistic, [] but I'm not so sure, given what I've seen so far. Gerry says "love is always the winning argument" but I'm afraid we've forgotten it and that it will tear us apart in Dallas when we so desperately need to come together...

P.S. [X], Thank you for your courage in speaking out and being real. We know what happens to people who dare to exhibit these traits on the TLC Board, but we should encourage them on ours if we're truly "answering only to the needs of the Alumni."


Anonymous said...

I did not get involved in the pissing match on whether TLC is a cult, I actually posted on Simple Justice, see the section over there.(i was supportive of TLC)
I was then branded a "psychopath", and barred from responding by the one who started this notion of TLC being a cult. So, I figured this is the way BLOG's work to mess with people.
I then learned that Clary, had written some piece entitled "horseshit", but Clary never responded to Mr Greenfield, over at Simple Justice(DOT COM). Clary's piece was a duck city, the reason the issue has lingered on.(or boiled up more)... Clary is the reason, TLC people ought to see what is going on if take the time on matters to evaluate.
I wrote of my experience with Simple Justice on Clary's site, left my real name, he posted up, then took down in about two days, and became abusive with me.(ON LINE), amde up B S,
I saw what a disinguiness guy Clary is, as far as I am concernd he is a yellow-belly coward.
Again, Clary just did a long piece entitled "horeshit" never directly responding to Mr Greenfield, or Norm. Instead, he pisses all over me, acts like he is some great Warrior, calls people cowards.
I agree with much of what you say, I don't have any problem with Spence, I wonder if it is chicken shits like Clary who are the problem ?
Again, I have not come here to bash you or hide under cover of dark. I tried being straigh up on this issue, and all I got was some game of me being made a target to piss on(from one side by Scott Greenfield), on the other from Clary,(WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU), as CLARY is out their RANGER-MAN, who is out front as the TLC Spokesman. Clary is the reason this issue is not going away, he is a jerk, he is no warrior, he is a phony.
But, I can't say anything like I would kick his whiny ass if he was standing in front fo me, becasue he then would engage in more lies, make up more "horseshit".
I agree with you, Gerry is not perfect, he never said he was. Gery does have and ego, he is a human.
Because I have noted I am not going to kick Clary's ass the next time I see, him, I am not going to leave my name, Check it out yourself:
1) google Confronting the Cult by Scott Greenfield( Sept 5, 2009
2) J R Clary's piece google Clary and horseshit.( what a WAY to go, Mr WARRIOR Clary.)
3) and of course 25 or so pieces by Norm Pattis on his blog.

To be frank with you
the reason this issue has lingered is becasue Clary is a big horses-ass.
To bad they don't hold boxing IRON man CAGE events in Fremont County, we could settle it like men, but no
little punks like Clary keep the issue alive for some twisted agenda.
Thank you for responding, I found you response real, and genuine, I can't say that about the items( 1-3 )noted above.
I did not come here to bash you be that kind of troll in the dark, I came here to tell you what has been happening, an how some supposedly in TLC are not serving that ORG, very well.
But, that is your all's problem to solve.........
I am hardly even an Indian, certianly not a BIG CHEESE CHIEF

Anonymous said...

Great post. You are so right on. I have lost faith in TLC and it's leadership. The recent actions of the president point to the problems and expose the truth of the organization as I have always suspected. There is an agenda that is about power and loyalty. If you aren't loyal to the new leadership you will be gone. Good people have been forces out because of the thirst for power and control. Those gone were the creative heart and soul but they would not tow the new party line or follow orders. The alumni meeting will be a joke with the new president strutting around, blustering, spewing propoganda but saying nothing. I have no desire to witness such hypocrisy.

Anonymous said...

The Gospel according to T/you are not a person, unless TLC deems you so, See the latest on Norm's blog under the title "lunatics out there".
Who needs this crap, a human is a person when he is born.
I don't get my person papers from TLC, and Clary can't treat as if we are illegal aliens, but it says more about his ways. Gross power grabs, in the order of Lord of the FLIES rituals of pecking orders.

Anonymous said...

TLC Board:
TLC is not a corporation, you are not employees.
So, what is the relationship of persons who claim some TLC affilation ?
I was wondering ?
I have been to many CLE seminars, some lasting a week.
I never felt any pulls on me from such orgs, after the course was over.
So, I was wondering how is TLC taking things to some other level............?
If some don't dig TLC any longer, one is not bound for life, I presume, you can SAY: "hasta la vista", can't you ?
So, some must find some benefits, and at what point to the benefits exceed the hassles, I suppose that is an individual decision.

Good luck in sorting it all out.
Some of you seem to almost make it sound like you are ranch hands order to clear out the horse manure in the barn.(@ Thunderhead)
Yet, no cattle are run on the ranch, just young bucks/ young turks out of law school, to a large degree.
Most people out of law school don't learn how the world really works until they have been in real world hard knocks city for about 5 years, out of law school.
Spence's stuff is not the only reality in the Universe.
Some of the best experience for a young law grad is to work for the DOJ or a federal agency.
But, Spence (his circle of cohorts) makes it sound like working for the FEDS is about the same as joining the Taliban

James R. "J.R." Clary, Jr. said...


I was present in Denver at the Retreat we had there for the F-Warriors Board in December 2005. The quotes you have highlighted from the Article I wrote for the Spring '06 Warrior are accurate and reflect the F-Warrior's Board feeling at the time, during a period of transition.

I believe they still reflect the view of the F-Warriors Board -- a group of passionate Warriors dedicated to serving the TLC Alumni. I also believe you are an integral voice on that Board and I am proud to serve with you. I admire that you have the courage of your convictions, even if we may have good faith differences of opinion on an issue or two. Those differences ---to whatever extent they might exist--- do not lessen my respect for you.

However, I do not believe we differ on the need for there to be as much transparency as possible -- transparency at ALL levels, INCLUDING clear transparency from those who either challenge the status quo and or who level criticism. Thus, those who level criticism should be transparent about the details buttressing the criticism and be clear about their supporting rationale.

Unfortunately, there seems to be precious little of that from the TLC critics. Instead, there is only gossip and innuendo articulated in the form of a challenge, which the TLC leadership them must try and address. When the full story is known by the critics I have had a chance to talk openly with, I discover that the criticism generally evaporates. What remains can be thereafter addressed in a substantive and meaningful way.

I hope you will agree that I have done my level best while serving on the FWB to address those issues leveling criticism which were assigned to me. Where questions were raised about TLC issues, I hope you would agree I have tried to present forthright responses, where asked. If I have failed to perform appropriately, I would expect you to "call me" on it and I will thence try to do better. I would do this for you as I would for any fellow F-Warrior Board Member and because I respect you, although I do not yet know you as well as I would like.

Similarly, we need to be more open toward the Alumni at the F-Warrior Board level, as well. Toward that end, perhaps we can discuss the methods through which that might occur at the November Retreat in Dallas, where I hope to see you, my friend.

I agree that witchhunts, loyalty oaths and stifling of dissent have no place in TLC. I agree that personal attacks are foolish and counterproductive. Of course, that's a 2-way street and the critics need to abide by the same principles.

On the other hand, I do believe that firm and straight-talk on ISSUES is always appropriate.

Thank you for your Blog and the fearless points you are willing to raise and discuss. By having the heart to write about these things in an open way, you do a great service to both yourself and TLC. If you ever care to talk about these things further, I would welcome the opportunity. Call me anytime.

J.R. Clary, Jr.

P.S. As for the other anonymous commentator (of course the biggest "voices" are ALWAYS anonymous) on your Blog challenging me to a fight, I would be very pleased to accept the challenge if you would agree to referee. 5 rounds (although I will only need 3) and 10 point-must scoring.....although that won't be needed either. ;-) JRC2

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

J R if TLC is not a cult, respond on
that to Scott Grenfield, etc ?
You know some so called Annons have
no power, you bragged on that.
This is not to be critical to
you or David.
Nor do I endorse that TLC is filled with
However, I don't have a big Blog Beacon
Some one could be an Annon,
and not doing what you claim.
If Mr Greenfield was not correct,
he has been given 60 days to
spread the notion: TLC cult.
You are the voice of TLC.
I did not come here to criticise you,
I hope this Blog does not leave
that impression, '& mute
this in-put.

Anonymous said...

J R makes nice speeches here:
however, J R posted this on his Big BEAM WWW blog:

"... The reason this guy was sent packin' was because his comments ---in addition to being nonsense--- unfairly attacked Mr. Pattis, among others. We can all disagree about issues, but the odd, personal vitriol he ladled out was just over the top.

So, he can go vent that silly crap somewhere else. Wherever it is, you can bet it won't be on his own blog or under his own name. The guy's a typical blowhard/coward. Big hat, no cattle. [Probably not that big of a hat either, now that I think of it. ;-) ]

And, yes, Sean: GO TIGERS! (Will y'all be by the Sugar Kettle after the game? Text me if you get this.)

J.R. a/k/a Jim"(end of J R quote)

Both Norm Pattis an J R Clary( TLC Spokesman) make it a big point, ANNONS are piss ants, little people, and powerless, and wack jobs, etc. in so many words to that effect.

They can say that until they are blue in the face.
Mr Norm Pattis in July of 2006 started attacking TLC, and to his assistance rushed his cyberPal, at Simple Justice.(FROM NYC)
You all can make ANNONS targets until the time Elvis is found, it is just a distraction.
Mr Clary's site has jacked up some to spark Norm's attacks on TLC.(Mike e'g another TLC grad. and MASTER BLOGGER)
All that is a diversion. Mr Pattis did not write his over 30 blog pices as an ANNON, nor did the cult thing start as an ANNON.
Mr Greenfiled was right in your face.
Most curious, the BLOG Masters made it a pissing match on ANNONS.
And punted on responding to the issues from Greenfield, on the CULT LOGO for TLC.
Very easy, just push a delete button, vilify some ANNON(s), misrepresent what he(she(they) said, sicce the delete button pushed, and get others to go to your Blog to blast the piss on ANNON(s), the ones you brag about are so powerless, his(her) hat is (blah blah).

Don't forget rah rahs, Norm Pattis is an Ex TLC instructor, your CODE PINK, and Greenfiled is a ex NY (State. Cove) Police commissioner.
The question here on; is TLC a cult, was never ansewred in the BLOG-O Sphere, visa the GreenField Piece(s), one started in 2007
Don't forget you all are the ones with the BIG BEAM BLOGS, and big HEADS.
Now some want Mr J R to wipe his board clean, feeling it was all so embarrasing this TLC Squable
NORM/ Greenfield v.____(who)....
It is not the ANNONS, they are just a bunch of piss ants, right, delete button CITY(in TLC high in the saddle land)...
Pattis in July 2006, noted TLC is filled with "nuts". That was not from an ANNON,
Since then that refrain has gone on--about non-stop
The same thing with an added spin, TLC filled with nuts, nutjobs, and to boot is a Cult( Greenfield Sept 2009, on this BLOG).
Not from an ANNON.
Mr Pattis was unfairly attacked, spouts Mr DEFENDER OF NORM--- J R Clary.
Oh, really, says J R, as he pushed the delete buttons in the wake of matters since 2006.
Do others in TLC know how Tiger, J R is treating this, as if some
Pattis groupie.

J M, AKA. Mitch

Anonymous said...

I got news for you.
Most of the world like the other 99.99 %
of the people have no clue what TLC is.
TLC is just 3 letters strung together.
For all they know, it is a mutual adoration society.
Long after, the mutual adoration society members
are, gone, people all over the world
will honor and recall who Crazy Horse was,
and will flock to see his out stretched arms,
pointing to his land, in the Mountain dedication
in S. Dakota.
That is the reality.
TLC is no more a tribe than
any Cub Scott troop
in Sherdian, named after the
buffalo killer

Anonymous said...

Where did the notion of Spence and cult start.
Ans. From a piece by David Giacalone on his blog, entitled the living legend blogging, and the cult of Gerry Spence on August 1, 2008.
Mr Giacalone had no comments on his blog.(on that matter, it can stll be access via google)
Mr Giacalone was doing it as a joke, mocking Gerry Spence's photo on his web. It was a total parody, he never wrote it as a serious piece. Some might look at that now.

I will try and drag it here for your reference:

Then, Norm Pattis wrote 30 pieces being totally serious, but never acknowledge that first notion was a total joke. Others picked up on that, in some veins.

So, just a little history on the orgins of the cult joke, cult con if you will.

Mr Giacolne was never a trial lawyer, his resume notes he worked for the Federal Trade Commission for about 10 years, got sick of it, then did a brief stint as a mediator in child custody/ divorce matters in New York, and now says he is a former lawyer. He is big in writing some strange poetry, 3 lines, few words.
It is most ironic, how what Mr Giacalone started as a joke, then took flight as this great Brew Ha Ha, from Norm Pattis, and he never once was saying it was a joke.
Maybe telling in its own way.
I am not able to bring this to Mr Pattis attention.
He now says he dusted off all the dust from Wyoming(TLC), and shut down ANNONS on his WWW sites.

Anonymous said...

I hear there is a big board meeting later this week at Spence's multi million dollar estate in Santa Barbara. Rumour is there will be more purging, but this time from the staff. Has FWB elected an alumni rep to the big board yet? Can you advise? Also, is the rumour about new rules being in the works for the list serve true? What the hell if the FWB doing to protect the alumni? Doesn't look like much except kissing the big board's ass.

Anonymous said...

This whole thing makes me sad. And I don't anticipate there will be much, if any change. There is the in crowd and the out crowd at TLC. That is never going to change. And frankly, I don't think the leadership want it to change. Everyone wants to be a part of the in crowd and most will do most anything to join. Nearly everyone wants to be on staff so they can sit close to Gerry. Why do you think people don't use their names to post on the various blogs? Because they don't want to hurt their chances of being invited to join the in crowd. And some are just snowed by all of Spence's hot air about love. He doesn't really love any of us. Those are just words. When you love someone, truly, you accept them no matter what they do or say. Spence doesn't love folks who disagree with them. He and the big board just get rid of them. That isn't love. Those are the acts of people with their own agendas and who don't want any voices of dissent. There is real dishonesty at TLC. And there is so much hypocrisy at TLC. It claims to be about love and inclusion. And yet, good people are thrown out. How is that consistent with the purported teachings and message of TLC? Wake up people, TLC is a lie. A good marketing strategy but hollow words.

Anonymous said...

Some in Chicago are suing an alleged cult as a con. SEE:

Or, piece pops up in a quick google: cult con Chicago.

So, what is the old saying:
Talk is cheap, real commitment takes real action.
If Norm Pattis driven and fueled by the rants of his master handler and Blogger, Scott Greenfield(Simple Justice Blog) truly belived that TlC is a cult(or its members cultist) why no law suit, like the one in Chicago ?
Everyone knows that Gerry Spence has a thing about religion, and acutely so as to Christianity.(all one has to do is read his books, or google Gerry on religion.
Mr Greenfield has used old scripture of Jewish religious leaders to attack Spence.
It almost smacks of some holy war, the Sunni at the throats of the Shia.
Now, even in England, upper crust Jews are suing to determine who is truly a Jews, given the thin allocation of spots at fancy private Yiddish schools.
I do not come to enter this holy war of Pattis v Spence on scared grounds. This holy war from Pattis/ Greenfield is driven by their Eastern roots, as Norm taunts the Western barn, the dust shaken off his feet, and as he claims he moves on now --- sub silento, and underground to sow his seeds, in his holy war.
When any write Norm, he shoots back, Rex and him are friends, or he knows the upper TLC crust, so bow down worker-bee wanta bees, and know you place in the holy pecking order( Ye surfs)
But, dare any ask, who appointed Norm high Priest of his new order
of the Bethany Temple of Conn ?
It seems some --who paid the ranch dues---are just not sure where TLC stands in the spectrum between the
secular, and the holy society of
Norm can blog, and talk, and rant until the cows come home. He an't got the canjones to do what the group in Chicago did... sue.
And, Norm calls himself a lawyer, too. Well, he don't have his bar card wehre a lot of us are from, that is for sure.

Anonymous said...

I have read some of Spence's books. I have seen in his writings that he goes back to the 13th Century to attack the Catholic faith, writes that Pope's were running slaves, etc.(so he claims... as some uber historian), and even suggests Popes were "Hilter's pope".
Ya, tell that to the guys with the name Murphy from Chicago, who were altar boys, whose grand father left his guts on Omaha Beach in WW-II.
I grew up Catholic. Spence made me think about stuff. However, looking back over 700 years, and
selecting out Rome is his thing.
It is certainly beyond Cannon law or Talmudic (Moses) principles.
Now, the great parodox, Spence (TLC) finds itself as the subject of the cult brand, from one of its ex disciples, the Deacon of Bethany.(and some other who left the flock, and its Sheppards)
What is even more puzzling, is that TLC must have members who are from every faith, no religious faith, a whole cross section of personal beliefs, even an Indian or 2, etc.
When one looks at the world, who is a Semite ? It is Jews, Arabs, Sunni Arabs, Shia Arabs, Kurds, some Turks, some others, all of who are Semites.
Norm threw in some cult thing, and look what it did ?
The only question I have, are TLC guys, women red blooded Americans, I don't care what God they pray to, or even if they don't pray to any GOD.
Xrist almigthy, nobody ever appointed Spence Pope, or Norm the Cardinal of Paris, or Rex the Bishop of L A.
This whole thing has the over tones of a Wood Allen Movie.
And, while I am at it, look around Yale University(nears Norm's offices in Conn) some good % of its resident halls are named after ex slave traders, owners.
Popes are humans, they sure are not perfect, they had flaws.
What else is new.

Anonymous said...

Only a few days until the big Dallas love fest. Soon the list serve will be awash with posts from sychphants who will kiss the new president's feet or ass at the Dallas alumni meeting and who will repeat the hot air and bs shared at the event. The lemmings are flocking to Dallas. And the pied piper will be there to lead them blindly into the abyss of the cult.

Anonymous said...

Will Ministet John Hagee from Texas
be giving any invocations,
to kick off the Dallas proceedings.
Actually, Hagee and Spence writings
run parallel.
Can any forget Hagee's pronouncments
on the " whore of Babyolon".
He offered a profuse apologyto Catholic
leaders, as they are the largest voting
block in U S politcs.( 2008), swing to
bring it home for Obama
Hagee is a devotee on
calling out " cults", or entities that
don't support his path to Israel.
Now, Norm's spiritual
leader, Scott Greenfield,
is up on his altar attacking the Bible,
his because he says so,
Norm is now afraid his Blog is
transmiting a virus.
Oh, my God, those posts on Gerry's
blog on porn.
Yes, Norm has posts on Spence's
blog on porn.( questions)
i find Norm's Blog very provocative,
I hope he is not afraid to go on
the cyber- space.
Norm is fearless to go where
others do not tread.

Anonymous said...

On line:
the recent Pattis blog piece wonders
if it makes any sense to go on line.
Most curiously some number of TLC
grads are on line with Net blogs in a big way
they invite people to come to their
blogs with provocative pieces.
The refer people to other blogs.
So, a poster who posts is not file sharing,
one is simple posting up ones
2 cents opinion on pieces,
some provocative.
I watched the Hagee sermon on
Rome, and it looks like Hagee and
Gerry on the same big wave length
line.( Anti some religious dogma)
Except Gerry is not heard on
over 500 T V and radio stations every week.
Certainly, some who TLC claim
make no sense are not exactly getting
high broad band saturation.
Dallas will be a great revival meeting,
and the flock will be led to
the promise land.

Anonymous said...

TLC is basically a CLE program,
a continuing legal education program.
Do you know of any other CLE program in
America called a cult by other lawyers,
as that has been the blogging crusade
1) Norm Pattis of Comnecuit on
his blog Norm Pattis Dot Com
2) Scott H. Greenfield using his blog
Simple Justice from New York City
Mr Greenfield is constantly degrading attorneys
in places like Arizona, and other states far
from New York
he was bragging the other day on
his blog that his anger and venom
is his trade mark, essentially.
I can't see that TLC is a cult,
Mr Greenfeld seems to prove he is
unable or unfit to deal with evidence.
But, he must have been handed out
an assembly line law degree from NYU.

Anonymous said...

Simple Justice's Greenfield likes to pump that he is the clarion voice of experience, and great NY insight, telling others(in places like Az, and far from the coast) the inside scoop on the law. His recent piece is on young lawyers who have blogs who are going out and posting(on their careers), and have little in depth knowledge on how the system really works.(of course pointed out by Greenfield). Perhaps, he has a point, experience does count, a J D alone won't get one too far in service to clients).
Which brings me to a piece that appeared in Texas Monthly:

Seems the CEO of Maxxam can spend over $ 50 million on lawyers, and hardly blink an eye.
Yet, some pards of Spence had a bank failure case, and their client ended up drinking himself to death, after getting convicted.
He was their ex classmate at U of W law.
So, this thing about being human, and remaining human, it must be tough in Wyoming, in some cirles, in the Tetons. You won't see the full scope of that on any Simple Justice, or Wantabe BLOGS.(matter even the subject of two reported federal appeal court decisions).
At least, this blog seems to seek the truth, is not afraid of allowing tough issues to be hashed out.
The premise of TLC is for Spence to teach people, who go there(THE RANCH)
"the art of being human".
If they didn't learn to be human in the first 24 years of their life, that is some real agenda that Spence is dealing with, if that is what has whipped up this fuss on whether TLC is a cult.
Fact is, most people don't have millions to be spend on attorneys, as the meters run.
The CEO of Maxxam sure did, but he was no more human than the classmates of U of W guys, who went to the Spence L L C in the late 1970's. Guess, they don't care to go on a blog, and tell of thier client9ex now dead) who got put through a meat grinder--like Norm does, recently. And, Norm is very experienced.
What is it with Norm's beef on the Ranch, it surely is not that he was never a human, or some how was never was able to reamin human.
Most people who are attorneys have a life that is not defined 100% by some Bar card.

Anonymous said...

The bank fraud cases were some of the most well known precedents in the Rockies. 2 reported federal appeal decisions.
The classmate(law) of the Spence pards, cashed in his chips, after his conviction, after being represented by a Spence L L C. counsel(Sr PARD) in the trial court.
So, we hear this thing about art of being human, the secret is to remain human. The only way he(client) seemed to be able to void the conviction, of the Spence( U of W) class mate was to exit.
Here is an excerpt from the reported federal appeal court ruling(name deleted), replaced with XXX.

Federal Court ruling:
After submission of these appeals, we affirmed the imposition of civil monetary penalties(millions) against defendants based on violations of cease and desist orders of the Federal Reserve Board. XXXX v. Board of Governors, 940 F.2d 1360 (10th Cir.1991). XXXX died on December 6, 1991. Thereafter, the government filed a suggestion of death. XXXXX's counsel, on behalf of the family, opposed dismissal, seeking an appellate decision on the merits. We respect the wishes of the family, but the law provides a more advantageous resolution: "death pending direct review of a criminal conviction abates not only the appeal but also all proceedings had in the prosecution from its inception. See Durham v. United States.."

The Feds(DOJ, FDIC, ETC--) got their big fish.
As they looked the other way at Silverado, and some Texas banks.
Now another round of troubled assets, the new era of meltdowns.

Anonymous said...

YES, TLC is absolutely a CULT!